Narcissistic father

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Narcissistic father; update on daughters' ongoing challenges
Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 07:53 PM (576 Views)
Klarity Belle	Jan 10 2010, 07:53 PM Post #1
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	The discovery of recent infidelity antics of my undx npd ex caused a lot of grief and stress for both my daughters as well as disrupting our routine across two homes. This came after a difficult year where he had already distressed them both on several occasions. During this recent time I have carried the weight of both the girl's emotional stress as well as doing my best to keep my own anger and stress private from them, my own free time suspended as well as lots of 'to do's' being shelved. Christmas and D11's brithday on the 29th were difficult and we are only just starting to feel some kind of normalcy return to our home and routine. My eldest D12 started going back to her dad's for visits of a few hours or so over the Christmas period and just resumed overnights at his and stepmum's home this weekend after 6 weeks out. She is very tentatively trying to rebuild her relationship with her dad and i am very proud of her mature attitude 'Hes never going to change but he's my dad and I love him and I have to make the most of what I've got'. But even though this guy is in 'good behaviour mode' to try to win her affections back he still manages to shame her at any opportunity. 1. He tells her she must never let her homework slip, life is life and deadlines have to be met. Not unusual advice perhaps but from him it upset her and she was quick to tell me afterwards and point out that the reasons she could not focus on and had fallen behind on her holiday projects was because of the upset he had caused her. The lack of empathy from this guy should not suprise me but it still somehow does! 2. D12 was eating some french toast at his place and using her knife and fork in an awkward way (he was eating with his fingers at the time), he takes the cutlery out of her hands and and starts showing her how to hold it and cut the food with the knife in front of the fork not behind it. he follows it up be saying 'I bet you are the only 12 year old girl in your class who still can't use a knife and fork properly'. D12 was so dissapointed at the way he had spoken to her and said to me 'why do I have to have a father like him?' - so sad. Meanwhile D11 is in shutdown mode and refuses to see or speak to her father, she went under duress on xmas day for one hour but refused to even see step mum or baby sis after this. She sent an email to her father on 27th December with an historical list of why she is so upset with him. It is now 11th January and he has only just sent a reply to her in which he apologises in one line and then backs himself up in the next and even turns certain things back on her. This is an eleven year old girl who he should be consoling and yet he says sorry he got angry with her for bedwetting but it was because she had been doing it for years and hadn't been doing the things she needed to to help herself - not only is he shaming her for years of bedwetting but excusing his own behaviour - unbelievable! D11 knows the email is there in her inbox but says she doesn't want to read it yet. I printed it off for her to read tomorrow but I do not think it will have the effect he is expecting - at the end of the email he dangled the carrot of her birthday present saying what a cool phone he has bought her. Her actually birthday came and went without so much as a card from him saying he missed her. With narc's it really is always only about them. The man is a pig through and through and imo is doing our children more harm than good, setting them up for abusive relationships in the future or to be man haters. I'm torn because I know it is my daughters who get to make their own choices here and at the moment one wants to see him and one doesn't, that in itself is causing a divide between the two girls. If I had my choice I would cut off contact with him all together and save them from the inevitable future traumas he is going to bring to them. Edited by Klarity Belle, Jan 10 2010, 08:06 PM.
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


2bad	Jan 10 2010, 08:06 PM Post #2
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,043 Group: Moderator Member #4,892 Joined: March 8, 2009	It's hard to sit and watch. (((KB))) But they have to come to their own conclusions about him. If you do it for them, they will blame you. All you can do is be there, listen, and keep trying to show them what a normal life looks like. Trust me, they CAN see the difference. The girls will work it out. I had that problem for a while with my two oldest boys. S15 has always been the black child and S13 the white. S13 was getting very angry at S15 for not wanting anything to do with their dad. I finally intervened. I simply explained to S13 that his experience with their dad has been very different than his brother's. They each need to worry about their own relationship with him and not try to force the other to take the same route they are. Then I pointed out that S15 doesn't try to turn S13 against their dad, so just let it be. They have worked it out and do get along well now.
	I'm not hyper, I'm enthusiastic.


Klarity Belle	Jan 10 2010, 08:15 PM Post #3
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	Thanks 2bad, he gets me so mad I just needed to rant it all out! I'm glad to hear your sons worked things through with each other and to respect each other's feelings about their dad. I do get over protective of the girls and want to save them from the hurt, I guess that is a natural way to feel. The situation is similar with my girls except D12 is white and D11 black - I will try speaking with them about respecting each other's feelings and experiences. Most importantly I need to get focus back on myself and my own needs, i've allowed the last couple of months to burn me out. It helps to know you have been there too and survived it
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


oneflewover	Jan 10 2010, 08:35 PM Post #4
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,309 Group: Senior Member Member #5,199 Joined: November 22, 2009	Rant away KB, rant away! We need this. I am coming off the cusp of learning that my ex was IN TOWN recently and made no effort to reach out to his child, nothing. It has been since xmas of 06 now since he has seen her. YET, he sends a gift card with a note of over-the-top affection. Same old stuff of course. It is perplexing, disturbing, and hurtful in so many capacities and yet the flip side is I count my blessings that he is absent and I am bpd free of drama and so is my child. What else can I do, what can any of us do? I just try to be honest and let my child express what she needs to when she needs to. I try to measure his acts with acts that are more in keeping with what love is, what parenting is, what healthy is. I am really sorry that your girls are dealing with such adult content at such an early stage in life. In one way, it will be a deficit and hurdles for them to overcome, in many other ways however, it will strengthen them and give them wings much earlier to combat so much in life. And again, it all falls on you to fill in those plugs to ensure that they are processing this all productively. This is how I live.....constantly filling in plugs. It is hard KB. We have setbacks from time to time no doubt. We love our children and we want the very best for them. Seeing the effects of the disordered parent on our kiddos never gets easy, nor should it. It should disturb us and should upset us. But it should also inspire us to fill up our moments with our kids with joy, peace and healthier ways. OFO
	One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis


Klarity Belle	Jan 11 2010, 09:12 AM Post #5
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	Thanks OFO. So sorry to hear your ex was so close and yet did not reach out to see your daughter, just shows how deep his guilt runs and how far he will go to avoid acknowledging it. It must hurt your little girl that he appears to have so little interest in her and I am sure that damages as much as a present PD parent who hurts in more overt ways. I feel a bit better today after a long sleep, the past few months have been trying with ex's chaos making and D11 was off school around 5 weeks before xmas then the holidays came with the added pressures those bring. I am so glad it is all over and daily routine is back, the girls are back at school and so I can catch up on my business and chores that have backed up. PD's cause all this upset and mess for everyone around them and as you say we are left to fill in the plugs - it makes me so mad. Everyday life is challenging enough without their added stress, if no kids are involved its a matter of walking away and having no contact again but I feel this guy is chained to my life through them for the next 6 or 7 years and I don't want to take his crap anymore. I make such efforts to get strong and I feel that he smashes my resolve down every time just by plain wearing me down with the fallout of his antics. Then the one solid parent they should have is also off balance. Hate is a strong word but that's is how I feel about him, there is not an ounce of goodness in him.
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


oneflewover	Jan 11 2010, 11:08 AM Post #6
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,309 Group: Senior Member Member #5,199 Joined: November 22, 2009	Quote: So sorry to hear your ex was so close and yet did not reach out to see your daughter, just shows how deep his guilt runs and how far he will go to avoid acknowledging it. It must hurt your little girl that he appears to have so little interest in her and I am sure that damages as much as a present PD parent who hurts in more overt ways. Thanks for the support, didn't mean to hijack your thread but can relate to a great deal in many ways. Is it guilt? I use to think so, lately I am inclined to think that he is really just an "ass". In my opinion, he is no doubt a borderline, although there are a great deal of histrionic and narcissistic traits in him as well. But clearly he is functioning quite well with whatever it is and life has not missed a beat for him too much. It almost feels as if his daughter (and me) are merely thorns in his side where every blue moon he stops to deal with it, you know? My daughter and I had unpacked another box last evening which happened to be the one with the photo albums. So we sprawled out on the floor and went through many of her baby pictures. I did my very best to recant those happy times and tell her the story behind the pictures, which included the ones with her dad. I so need for her to know that there was love there at one time and it was real and we were happy. It is hard to see him in those pictures I have to admit--he seems like a ghost to me. I am glad you are feeling better today. It ebbs and flows it seems. Sometimes we have such a handle on it and other times we simply don't. Quote: PD's cause all this upset and mess for everyone around them and as you say we are left to fill in the plugs - it makes me so mad. Everyday life is challenging enough without their added stress, if no kids are involved its a matter of walking away and having no contact again but I feel this guy is chained to my life through them for the next 6 or 7 years and I don't want to take his crap anymore. I make such efforts to get strong and I feel that he smashes my resolve down every time just by plain wearing me down with the fallout of his antics. Then the one solid parent they should have is also off balance. Hate is a strong word but that's is how I feel about him, there is not an ounce of goodness in him. I echo all of the above, however I waffle back and forth from hate to bewilderment, to compassion, to love. It is tiring. There are times when I find resolve and recognize the toxicity for what it is and there other times where I just simply feel like screaming "why, oh lord, why?". It can be an awful lot to deal with psychologically/emotionally. I am typically I strong minded one but I have to say, this PD stuff has whipped my ass many times over. There seems to be no goodness in my ex either. I don't understand the need to bother with sending a xmas gift card and yet not bothering with seeing one's child. What is the point in that? It seems like a cruel game and joke. And yet, if I am honest with myself, I am so relieved that he leaves her/us alone. How conflicting in my emotions!!!! Okay, clearly, I am no help today to you KB, perhaps I can offer some wine instead and we can just commiserate for a few days until we get our second wind?
	One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis


Klarity Belle	Jan 11 2010, 07:23 PM Post #7
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	ofo how lovely you were able to look through old photos with your daughter and tell her of some good things when her dad was in her life. I know what you mean about the man being a ghost to you - I look at my ex now and see an evil alien masquerading as a human being. You are a big help OFO and all those here who co-parent with a PD - it helps to feel understood and not so alone in the topsy turvy challenges we have to face on top of every day life. A few years ago I would never have believed I could have gained so much support from an online community of folk I have never met face to face. The truth is I feel better understood here than by any one who knows me personally! So I'll join you OFO in raising my glass to you and this wonderful community of folk btw I'm on the wagon for January but will save my first glass of red as a toast in Feb!
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


Aames	Jan 11 2010, 10:45 PM Post #8
Over 100 posts Posts: 789 Group: Admin Member #4 Joined: October 12, 2007	It truly is all about them KB. Even when it isn't ... they find some way of making it all about them. I had an NPD father as well. You and your girls have my utmost empathy. On the up side... at LEAST they are not under the same roof with him on a daily basis, and the older they get the easier they will be able to recognize the crazy-making behaviors and distance themselves from them.
	�I like my coffee like I like my men. In a plastic cup.�


Klarity Belle	Jan 12 2010, 05:46 AM Post #9
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	Thanks Aames. Sorry to hear your dad had NPD too (my ex is undx but his behaviours speak for themselves!). Can I ask you if your mother did anything to protect you and any siblings you may have? I have a friend whose dad is NPD and her mother was so worn down that she jumped to pacify him. My friend encourages me to stand up for my D's and not push them into doing what they don't want to where their dad is concerned. Her mum used to make her go visit with her dad even though she was terrifed of him. She wet the bed until she was 16, she carries damage from her childhood but was lucky to meet a good man and lives a happy family life. I just found out last night that my 5 year old God daughter has leukemia and has been rushed to a mainland hospital for treatment. When things like this happen it kind of puts everything else in perspective - I am not ever going to let this man walk over my daughters or me again. The sad little man is going to end up losing connection with everything that really matters, I just pity the poor unsuspecting young woman who he turns his charms on when his current wife fully wakes up and bolts with the baby.
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


oneflewover	Jan 12 2010, 03:29 PM Post #10
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,309 Group: Senior Member Member #5,199 Joined: November 22, 2009	KB, thank you for your thoughts and kind words. I am so sorry to read of your Goddaughter's diagnosis. I will put her in my prayers tonight and say a prayer on her behalf. I do believe in the power of prayer. Yes, things of this nature can put our trials all in it's proper perspective.
	One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis


Klarity Belle	Jan 12 2010, 06:28 PM Post #11
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	My friend is a great believer in prayer and will be comforted to know that they are being given for her daughter. I just heard tonight she has the most common form of leukemia and will start her chemo treatment on thursday. She should be back home in 2 weeks leading her life as normal but with hospital visits and the side effects. She is a strong and robust little girl and I have faith that she and her body will fight hard and recover. Thank you OFO.
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


Klarity Belle	Jan 15 2010, 05:49 AM Post #12
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	I just don't know when this situation will ever settle down with my kids father. Yesterday D11 was off school because she was so distressed at his email, D12 is off today - part of this is just because she is pining for my attention because so much of it has been going on D11, so i'm letting this one go but told her no more missed days this term unless she is 'really' sick! Tonight I am going over to their dad & SM's house to discuss a way forward. I am dealing with him in crazy town and SM one foot in crazy town and one in reality. So i'm going to walk into their topsy turvy bubble with it's shiny veneer of 'normal' and I have to be clear thinking and rational. My T says to call things for what they are without pussyfooting around and be prepared for him turning things on to me. Oh yes we all know that one! Personally I am pre-empting that he is scared right now of losing his kids for good, usually when he is at this phase and knows he can't try anymore bully tactics he switches to 'poor me' mode where he might actually dribble a few narcissistic tears out for effect and try to pull sm, me and D12 into sympathy mode for this poor broken man. It will of course become ALL ABOUT HIM! So I am preparing as well as I can anyway. I know how quickly reality can distort where he is involved , also I will be watching out for what is said in front of D12 (perhaps I should go alone). I want to be armed with plenty of reality checks in my head and I have a few in mind but any advice from previous experience would be so welcome. Or if you can send some support vibes my way around 7pm gmt that would be wonderful. My mantra: I will not be manipulated. After I wrote my mantra above and posted, the very next article I looked at on line was just perfect! I read a post on an N site which led me to it. Its an excerpt from the book 'Wolf in Sheeps Clothing' - it's got a comprehensive list of all the classic npd manipulation tactics. Now to fit in a bit of extra swatting time b4 7pm! http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/03/24/wolves-sheeps-clothing Edited by Klarity Belle, Jan 15 2010, 06:38 AM.
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


oneflewover	Jan 15 2010, 10:43 AM Post #13
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,309 Group: Senior Member Member #5,199 Joined: November 22, 2009	On one hand KB it is so great that you are taking the bull by the hands and getting to the root of this so that all of you can go forward but on the other hand, my new cyber friend, you have to be careful here that you are not falling into the "fixer" mode that we as nons often do. This is his problem with his children. And despite how much it is effecting you and your home unit with your daughters, this is sort of his to fix. So when you do go over there make sure that this mantra of yours also entails a threshold for you where you don't find yourself taking it all on to solve the matter. He has to roll his sleeves up too, your just there to show him how..... Good luck entering crazytown, makes sure you have a round trip pass okay?
	One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis


Klarity Belle	Jan 15 2010, 11:39 AM Post #14
Klarity Belle Posts: 940 Group: Moderator Member #3,151 Joined: December 2, 2008	OFO of course you know! How can I hoodwink a fellow recovering non and not admit that Mrs Fixer is banging away loudly, muffled behind a door in my head !!! Already I have a list of child, family and mediation services though I have only spoken to one lady on the phone because I am going to give him the job of setting it all up when the time comes. D11 isn't ready for family therapy yet though, she has shut down completely and needs individual therapy first, which kind of leaves it in my hands until it gets to the family stage because I want to be part of that process with her not have him organise it. She needs to feel safe. I am painfully aware of Mrs Fixer just busting to jump in though Bear with me while I sound this out: He's warming up, he text before asking how I was (how kind!) and how were the girls. I responded: I am good, D11 is teary and D12 is ok but a bit cross. Another text. Why is she cross? response: she saw her sister upset and read your email and she feels stuck in the middle, see you 6.30pm. So i'm going to try keeping it simple tonight. The girls are both upset and currently do not want to see him, D12 will resume seeing him soon but D11 will need help with child therapist to begin with, then when she is ready we can move on to family therapy. In the meantime my suggestion is that D12 can stay over with him and sm whenever she feels comfortable doing so, hopefully one week night and one weekend. I am also going to make him aware of the two recent times D12 has been upset when he shamed her for homework and the way she holds her knife and fork also the 3 clear shaming messages from his email to D11 and tell him that these methods will not help especially while he is trying to rebuild their trust. The fact is he has upset both the children and me and sm are the ones mopping up the mess. The main issue the girls have with him is his methods of shaming them and the whole text message thing and they were very distressed over the text messages. This is his relationship with his girls, he is the adult - they are children he has to take the lead and EARN their trust. Any manipulations or fast ones pulled by him then I play my Ace: Bottom line is he and I would not have any contact if we didn't share children, he treated us terribly through shaming me verbally and with numerous infidelities. In 6 years there has been no financial contribution from him and the last time I brought the matter up 4 years ago he became aggressive and made derogatory comments about me on my own doorstep. The only reason we have any contact is to allow the girls to have the choice of a relationship with their father. As it appears familiar patterns of behaviour are repeating again in the present and my girls are being hurt by it, I can only support them when their choice is not to see him. Now to remember all that when my head turns upside down and inside out in crazy town tonight
	http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung


oneflewover	Jan 15 2010, 12:25 PM Post #15
Over 1000 posts Posts: 1,309 Group: Senior Member Member #5,199 Joined: November 22, 2009	He does not pay child support? What does the therapist suggest here as far as the girls and their relationship with their father goes? Perhaps removing yourself altogether as a liason may be in order? The first few years KB, I went out of my way to make sure my little one talked with her father. I would pick her up from daycare and immediately on the way home dial his cell and hand my cell over to her to talk to him....well guess what, about 75% of the time he did not answer. I would beg him to have a nighttime phone ritual with her where they could say goodnight. (we were long distance from him) There was never any consistency, it was like pulling teeth and I was wearing myself emotionally with and frustration. I have the good fortune of dealing with child psychologists and so I finally asked one their opinion of what I should do (or not do) and he told me to STOP. Stop forcing their relationship, stop trying to make contact happen, stop begging him to come see her, stop making her call him, stop trying to fix and solve matters, stop all of it. This was HIS job to do as well as HIS role to take on. It is between them. My only partication was to not stand in the way. And so thereafter, I stopped. As a result my child is able to set her own boundaries and expectations and she is able to learn early on "exactly" what she is dealing so that she has a realistic view of her father and not a covered-over one or fantasy one. So what if you simply did not bother here with him and the girls and just focused on you and your girls?
	One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis

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