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| Topic Started: Feb 1 2010, 09:03 AM (1,175 Views) | |
| whirlwind | Feb 1 2010, 09:03 AM Post #1 |
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I need some help on this. My situation is coming to some sort of showdown and I'm nearly at my wit's end. My psychologist tells me my wife is not stable enough to be confronted about her BPD (in terms of an all out here it is in black and white). He is partners with my wife's psych and assures me her psych is fully aware of the situation. The problem is my wife keeps asking what she can do to fix our marriage and hangs onto one conversation we had months ago where I said I didn't know why I was unhappy and that maybe I was resentful. Well the only thing she seems to care about is fixing the marriage and that she is frustrated that I'm not seeming to make any progress with my psych. I tell her that I'm not supposed to get into deep discussions with her but that the problem is not my resentment and that there is nothing specifically she needs to do for me except work on her emotional issues. She replies that the only issue she has is low self-esteem and that her psych tells her that and that they're working on it. Time after time I've told her I think there are additional issues (emptiness, fear of abandonment, dependency...in essence the BPD list) but all she does is ignore it and then acts as if I won't tell her anything to help her figure out what's wrong. Part of me feels very sorry for her because she seems devastated by the fact that I'm unhappy and she seems incapable of doing anything else other than spending every waking moment trying to fix our marriage. On the other hand, as my psych says, she seems to have selective hearing and refuses to acknowledge what I'm saying to her. I'm coming to a crossroads where I don't know how much longer I can hold out without uttering the phrase BPD to her. I certainly don't want to risk her doing harm to herself but it's like I'm a time warp and all we do is go back and forth with the same conversation..."What can i do to make things better" "work on your issues while I work on mine" "That's not the problem, I told you I have a low self esteem but that's all. What do I need to do to solve the problem?" And on and on and on it goes. Any thoughts on this? Is this classic denial? My psych assures me her psych knows all this but I really wonder sometimes what she's being told. Anyone find themselves in a similar situation where the BPD is not disclosed? I'm at such a loss right now. I'm absolutely torn in half between feeling bad for her because she's in so much pain and hating her because she refuses to listen to anything I say. I also think that her trying to "fix" things is her way of controlling me, of asserting her dependency issues and fear of abandonment. All I know is that sometimes this stuff is so damn confusing you really wonder which way is up. |
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| Klarity Belle | Feb 1 2010, 09:09 AM Post #2 |
Klarity Belle
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Hey Whirlwind. I don't feel experienced enough to offer up any advice to you, just wanted to send some good wishes your way for the troubles you are facing right now. I am sure someone will be along to offer you some support soon. |
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http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4 "You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we will meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung | |
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| 2bad | Feb 1 2010, 09:16 AM Post #3 |
Over 1000 posts
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I think you have a pretty good handle on the situation. This about this...you have no idea of what her T is saying to her, only what you are being told. And you know firsthand that even if you tell her what needs to be done, so doesn't hear you and insists that she only has self-esteem problems. It is quite possible and likely that her T HAS brought up other problems and that she will not or cannot hear what the T is saying, either. It seems that a lot of them do spend a lot of time trying to "fix" the marriage, so long as it involves no change on their part. What they really want is for you to go back to the way things used to be. There is no desire for an actual healthy marriage, just one where they are in control and are having their needs met. You needs do not matter. Harsh, but a fact. You might try talking to your T about how to respond to those situations. You need to be setting boundaries and sticking to those. You can be a broken record and that's fine. when she asks, simply state that what needs to happen is for both of you to keep working with your individual Ts and working on yourselves. When she starts in about her only problem being self-esteem, tell her that may be the case, but it is still a big issue and she needs to continue to work on it. There is no quick fix and it takes time. A lot of people with PDs will look for any excuse to quit T when they sense that they might actually be the one with a problem. That is not on their agenda. YOU are supposed to be the one who needs fixed and they don't want to confront that it might be them instead. You are very correct in your assessment that it is part of her trying to control things. Just try to remain detached and stick to your boundaries. |
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| Saraa | Feb 1 2010, 10:24 AM Post #4 |
Over 100 posts
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I can only speak from my own experience with PD people. IMO, 2 Bad makes an excellent point here. As a non-PD, at some point always worrying about the fragile mental health of the BPD or other PD in your life becomes wearisome and annoying and detrimental to the non-pds emotional and physical health. IMO, perhaps you can discuss moving forward with a divorce or a separation. I am sure the psych will tell you that now is not the time. But you might explain to him that you are at your wit's end. Insist that you need advice on how to proceed with a separation or a divorce, in order to preserve your own sanity and physical health. Your wife likely is in denial. And, it's possible that she will remain in denial no matter how much counseling she receives. PDs are notoriously difficult to cure. The question then is HOW LONG ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO WAIT before you start focusing on the things that will keep you healthy. If you have children, mention to the shrink that you think those children deserve at least one emotionally healthy parent. It is very difficult to remain emotionally healthy while having too much contact with a PD, IMO. Lastly, from my own personal experience, I don't think it is a wise move for the counselor to be attempting to keep a non-pd and a Pd together at the expense of the non-pds health. Sometimes, to my mind the counselors focus too danged much on the health of the PD to the detriment of the non-PDs health. Edited by Saraa, Feb 1 2010, 10:25 AM.
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| Haggis | Feb 1 2010, 10:32 AM Post #5 |
Over 1000 posts
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If she's initiating this conversation repeatedly and it always ends the same way then it sounds like she is using this line of approach as a means to an end. What are you usually talking about right before she takes this approach - and what are you talking about once she is done? Maybe it's working for her as an escape hatch from a conversation she doesn't want to have to a conversation she's comfortable having. It sounds noble - "What can i do to make things better?" - but it would only be sincere if she didn't immediately invalidate the answer by saying "That's not the problem, I told you I have a low self esteem but that's all..." so she is perhaps using the question to get you back to where she has control over the conversation. And she's got you taking the bait by answering. I must have had thousands of these kinds of circular conversations with my ex which honestly went on for hours and hours. Some people are good at manipulation - my ex used to put me in the fake driver's seat like that by asking questions like that while invalidating and/or ignoring the answers. I now look back and realize she already knew all the answers, she remembered the previous conversations and she knew that if I got out of line she could subtly talk me into whatever she wanted or didn't want. If you've already answered the question then I would politely refuse to answer it again. "You already asked me that and I already answered it. You don't have to agree with my answer but it hasn't changed" It's also pretty common that people with BPD will misrepresent what their therapist has told them. Haggette would frequently tell me that the T said this or that (including that I was the problem). Selective hearing was a big part of that - but I now think some of it was just good old fashioned lying. Another thought is that "work on your issues while I work on mine" is kinda vague and immeasurable. I don't know if you've ever heard of SMART objectives but maybe next time you could ask her for something very specific that you really want and that fits the SMART criteria - Specific, Measureable, Achievable, Realistic & Time-Bound - maybe that will short circuit the circular conversations. You know -"How can I make things better?" "You could wash the dishes and mop the floor while I do the laundry" As far as telling her about BPD? Knock yourself out but people are rarely motivated to work harder after being accused of having a mental illness. It probably won't get you what you want but it will give you some new vocabulary to use in arguments. I think it's better to focus on specific behaviors that you want/don't want rather than trying to start thought policing her. I'm not a big fan of the husband/wife tag team T. THese days I'm not a fan of sharing the same T either. Your therapy needs to be about you and as long as triangulation exists (or in your case quadrangulation) it's going to drive your curiosity crazy and you are going to take the focus off yourself and onto her (which means you're spending good money and getting little long term value out of it.) Edited by Haggis, Feb 1 2010, 10:35 AM.
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| Often wrong but never in doubt. | |
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| oneflewover | Feb 1 2010, 11:25 AM Post #6 |
Over 1000 posts
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At some point the elephant in the room does need to be pointed out. I understand the psychology of slowly getting a bpd to accept their disorder, but eventually in order to take steps towards recovery, one has to know with what they need to recover from! To me, denial does no one any good. So basically, you are now asked to walk on even more eggshells because she is in a fragile state. Maybe her fragile state is because she has no idea what is wrong with her and why she acts the way she does. Maybe if she has something to grasp, a diagnosis, a treatment protocol, she can move from this fragile state to one where she could possibly do something about it and gain some strength and control of herself. How frustrating this must be for you whirlwind. |
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One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis | |
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| whirlwind | Feb 1 2010, 11:39 AM Post #7 |
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Over 10 posts
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An update: Get a text message this morning asking what time my appt is tomorrow with my T. I call back a little later and she says never mind. She was going to ask me to come home and talk about it afterwards but had decided that she would stop trying to fix everything in our marriage and wanted to apologize for her behavior recently. She asked if that made me happy. I said yes and you could feel the steam coming through the phone. I said it made me happy that she saw that she couldn't fix everything and that I was happy she would give me room to work on things. This did not go over very well. Thank you all for your thoughts and support on this. I'm so stressed about this I'm beginning to feel physically ill. It seems to get to the brink and then something will happen where she backs off for a few days and I think I can keep going. And then it all starts right back up and I find it hard to concentrate and get any work done. |
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| 2bad | Feb 1 2010, 11:55 AM Post #8 |
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Over 1000 posts
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I am sorry you are having such a rough time, but it kind of comes with the territory, unfortunately. I think you did a good job with saying that it makes you happy to have the space to work on things. Of course, she's not going to like it. Her biggest fear is that YOU will get better and leave. You are also doing a good job of recognizing that there is a pattern of pushing only so far, then having her back off. She does know there is a limit and won't cross that line, one again knowing that it could lead to her worst fear. This will continue over and over again. At some point, you will either reach the point that you have had enough and leave or you will have to accept that she is just that way and deal with it. Just keep working with your T. Focus on you and your needs. (((Whirlwind))) |
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| whitelotus | Feb 1 2010, 12:03 PM Post #9 |
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Over 10 posts
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Dear Whirlwind, I'm also new to this site and am just learning more about BPD. With or without BPD though, being married is not easy, it can be wonderfully fulfilling but most happy couples I know seek help (couples therapy) to achieve that. Living with another person can be difficult and adding children to the mix adds to the challenge, especially children with special needs. My husband and I have lots of married friends and most of us have been in therapy together with our partner from time to time. Some of us have grown closer with our partner and others have not and divorced as a result of good therapy. For us, the choice of a good therapist has been key. The one we found was not recognized by our health plan but the cost was worth EVERY cent. IMHO, I think when you have kids, you have a responsibility to them to seek couples counseling before splitting up. Many blessings to you, whitelotus |
| "We can do no great things, only small things with great love." Mother Theresa | |
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| Saraa | Feb 1 2010, 12:58 PM Post #10 |
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Over 100 posts
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This PD pattern has been my lifelong experience, too. I had to disconnect and set very strong boundaries with very limited contact in order to be able to concentrate and have a life. As has been mentioned you only have two options. Stay and accept things the way they are, which might well be both psychologically and physically unhealthy, or disconnect from her. If you have children, and are worried about the effect of a divorce on your children.... there is a growing body of evidence that strongly suggests that parents who are continually in conflict or who are always brawling set a poor role-model example for children and that can harm there own future marriages. Also, many children in such families are relieved when the parents finally divorce. Speaking from my own experience with an NPD-HPD mother who continually picked fights with my father......I can testify to the fact that I used to pray that my parents would divorce, so that I could go live with my father. My dad was an enabler, but when he was not around my mother, like when she would go out of town to visit relatives, life was so much better for me and my brothers. My mother made our family life too crazy. Here is a link to a psychology today article that discusses divorce and it's effects on children. It suggests that divorce does not ham the children as much as the fighting and dysfunction do: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/contemplating-divorce/200911/divorce-doesnt-harm-children-parents-fighting-harms-children Edited by Saraa, Feb 1 2010, 01:01 PM.
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| whirlwind | Feb 2 2010, 03:47 PM Post #11 |
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Over 10 posts
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Interesting meeting with my T today to discuss the topics above. What I walked away with was a mixture of sadness, relief, worry, hope...in other words a little bit of everything: 1) Affirmation that her behavior is out of control and it is causing me to drop into depression. The nausea I'm feeling is a physical symptom of my depression. I feel more comfortable setting some pretty hard boundaries because I have to be stable for my children and I won't allow her to pull me into depression 2) A better understanding of my "deal with the devil". For years, my walking on eggshells and passive acceptance to keep the peace was a trade-off with the truth. Ultimately, keeping the peace seemed like the kind and compassionate thing to do but in reality, avoiding the truth in the relationship just postponed the inevitable. I think so many of us non-BPs think we're doing the right thing but there is a price to be paid. It's almost like instant gratification (i.e. I want to avoid a negative reaction/situation so my gratification is near-term peace) but this only leads to even more hurt later on. The truth is the truth and "it sucks that she and your family are going through this but denying or sugarcoating it isn't going to do anyone any good" 3) I'm both sad and relieved at this one. I told him that based on everything I've read and know about BPD and her additional issue of dependency, what I used to think was love was in fact the exact opposite. As long as I meet her needs and she is in control, I'm the greatest thing in the world. But now my eyes have been open and realize this for what it is: it is a false love. It is what keeps true intimacy from being there. In his words, "she is incapable of love". She loathes herself and is desperate to control me thinking that I can fulfill her needs while destroying me piece by piece. I tell him I don't want to live that way. I don't want an average marriage. I want an exceptional marriage. I want emotional intimacy where truth and honesty are at the forefront. I want to be loved for who I am, not what I provide or what needs I meet for someone else. The sad part is my T says it is very unlikely she will change, and in my gut I know that is true because I now know what BPD looks like for the last 20 years and how insidious it is. I feel bad and guilty when I say things that hurt her and I she how devastated she is. But what I tell her is the truth: I have lost the emotional feelings for her and the years of hiding the truth has taken it's toll until there is nothing but emptiness. She will probably never understand this and it will be very difficult but I feel a sense of relief that the T has affirmed that it's ok for me to want a life, to realize that she thinks she loves me but really doesn't and that the facts of BPD mean that she is not likely to change. So I walked out today with the sad knowledge that everything I wanted in this marriage has no probability of happening. I need to work on stabilizing the situation to protect my own mental health and try to work on a timeline that best helps our children. The T said he's hoping I can make it 'til summer without being driven out of the house by her constant back and forth. We'll see. But the sadness of a failed marriage and the relief that someone is confirming what you instinctively knew all along are very odd feelings to have occur simultaneously. I have a long way to go to understanding BPD and I hate to fail at anything, especially my marriage, but I'm realizing I can take a step back, detach emotionally from the situation and ultimately face the truth that not everything in life works out as planned. I feel so bad for anyone who is BPD because it's awful and no one would choose it. But like I'm facing the truth at the expense of instant gratification and peace, so too must the BPD person accept the truth that they ultimately seek to control another human being to provide their happiness. No matter how much we deny or delay the tough choices, their lives will never be what they're capable of until those of us who love them and support them realize there are times our own behavior has allowed their illness to continue on without facing their own difficult issues. Loving while letting go....a very sad but necessary reality of life. |
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| Haggis | Feb 3 2010, 08:47 AM Post #12 |
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Over 1000 posts
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Hey whirlwind I found myself nodding all the way through that post - those feelings you expressed sound very familiar to how I felt in my situation. Thanks for sharing that. |
| Often wrong but never in doubt. | |
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| oneflewover | Feb 3 2010, 11:24 AM Post #13 |
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Over 1000 posts
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What revelations you are having here and in many ways so very necessary so that you can take back your life and your emotions again. This last thread of yours is what I see as a major paradigm shift and turning of the page for you. To love a person inflicted with BPD is by far the most conflictual thing I have ever done. We see both the sickness of their thoughts and emotions and yet deal with the cruelty of their thoughts and emotions. It is completely upside down and inside out. Most people who treat me disrespectfully and with malice, I can easily walk away from and yet, why do our bpd's take such a stronghold on us? Yes, so very conflictual indeed, until we have these kind of revelations that you are now having and release ourselves from it all. Many cyber hugs to you whirlwind, I know exactly where you are at right now in this moment. |
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One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest ~Alis volat propriis | |
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| bluesaxe | Feb 3 2010, 02:47 PM Post #14 |
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Over 10 posts
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This is so true, and also something that tripped me up for a very long time. We are working on it, right? Things will get better, right? Eventually I realized that I was the only one really working on anything and since I was so overextended already, I didn't really have much more that I could give. An example from my relationship -> My uBPD sat me down one evening and told me she wanted to work on our relationship. She had a book in her hand that had a bunch of couple's exercises in it to help rebuild a relationship. uBPD: "I think we should do this book together. I really think we need to improve our relationship. I feel I'm not getting what I need out of our relationship right now" bluesaxe: "OK, what more are you looking for, what would you like me to do" uBPD: "I don't know" Bluesaxe: "If you don't know what you are looking for, I don't know how I can help you" uBPD "That is the most insensitive thing you have ever said to me!! I can't believe you would hurt me like that! I love you so much and you say such terrible things to me!!" Bluesaxe: (Speechless) uBPD: "No one has ever hurt me like this!!" uBPD then throws the book at me still raging uBPD: "I will never have sex with you again! You are so insensitive!! I never want to have sex with you anyway! I just do it to make YOU happy!" I didn't respond. I couldn't. It was all completely irrational. The next day I came home from work packed up my things and left for two days to stay at a friends house and evaluate whether I wanted to "work" on our relationship still. The upcoming weekend we were all supposed to go to uBPD's parents house with her family. Upon my return, I found out that uBPD had been complaining to her family about how terrible I was and how I had left her. I told her I wasn't going to visit her family with her because of their knowledge of recent events. Instead I spent the weekend reading the book she threw at me. It was actually quite good and had a lot of valuable things in it. I also knew it would be nearly impossible for uBPD to complete the book without facing some of her demons. When she returned from her parents house, I sat her down to talk: bluesaxe: "Have you read the book?" uBPD: "I read the first chapter" bluesaxe: "I'd be very happy to do this book, but I think you should read it completely first. I read it over the weekend. I think there are some things in the book that you might have some trouble with" uBPD: "We can start on chapter one now" bluesaxe: "I really think you need to read the book completely and decide if it is something you really want to do. If not this book, perhaps another book might be better" uBPD: "OK" Since she hadn't brought it up, I asked her two weeks later, and she still had not completed the book. I moved out for good 3 months after this incident, and she still had not read the book. |
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| Saraa | Feb 4 2010, 10:45 AM Post #15 |
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Over 100 posts
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Bluesaxe: I am glad to hear that you decided to take back your life. The problem, IMO, with PDs and relationships is that the PDs are insane and destroy life for anyone in a close relationship with them, but they can appear so normal, and perhaps even likable to the people whom they are not in contact with full time. Thus, the Non-pd gets no help or sympathy for being the caretaker of a mentally ill person. Regarding your uBPD reading the book.....IMO, even if she had read the book, she would only focus on the parts that blamed you and absolved her of any need to change. In her mind, it is you who needs to change. And, as you noticed, she is not even sure what it is about you that she "needs" to be changed. Edited by Saraa, Feb 4 2010, 10:46 AM.
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